The Trnity

[Joyce]

This message board has been in operation about 2 and 1/2 years and I have never expressed my views on the trinity for the simple reason that it is not a subject that lends itself to short messages. But I believe that at this time the Lord is leading me to post the following message on the Comforter. I hope the reader will not summarily dismiss these views, but will consider the four rather short studies on the trinity beginning with "The Trinity: Is God Three Persons In One" http://www.rightwordtruth.com/trinity.htm

The Comforter

The Greek word translated "Comforter" is "Parakletos". The Companion Bible note on this word used in Jn. 14:26 is helpful. That note reads, Parakletos and the Lat. Advocatus both mean one called to the side of another for help or counsel". In I Jn. 2:1 the word is translated "advocate". Let us consider that verse as it will tell us a very surprising truth as to Who the "Parakletos" is, "....if any man sin, we have an advocate (Parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". John tells us quite specifically that Jesus Christ is the Advocate ("Parakletos").

But John also tells us in Jn. 14:26 that the Parakletos is the Holy Ghost". "But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost.....". How can the Parakletos be both the Holy Ghost and Christ? If we are going to receive God's truth in regard to this question we must be prepared to put aside the doctrine of the so-called "Trinity". Please see the above mentioned papers papers on the Trinity http://www.rightwordtruth.com/trinity.htm that prove from Scriptures that God is not three Persons, but that God has many titles. Just as "Son of God", "Son of Man", "Emmanuel", "Messiah" and "Lamb of God", to name a few, are titles or offices of Jesus Christ, so too is "Parakletos" a title or office of the Holy Spirit. As we see that Jesus Christ is God and fulfills all the offices of God, including Holy Spirit the Parakletos, we see that there is no contradiction here. Christ Who fulfills the office of Holy Spirit is our Advocate (Parakletos) with the Father.

Jn. 14:16-18 also tells us that Christ is the Parakletos We read in that passage, "...I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter..........I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you". Note that our Lord said that the Father shall give them another Comforter, Who in verse 17 is said to be the Holy Spirit. And yet Christ said that He would come to them so that they would not be "comfortless". In other words, in this passage which speaks of the Father sending the Parakletos, Christ speaks of His coming. Again, that makes Christ the Parakletos. Since Christ is the Parakletos and Christ is also the Son, they cannot be two different Persons. But if one sees "Son" and "Parakletos" as different offices of one God and that Christ fulfills both offices, all is clear.

Let us also consider the Greek word translated "comfortless". The note in the Companion Bible on this word reads, "comfortless=orphans. Gr. orphanos. Occurs only here and James 1:27 which reads, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless (Gr. orphanos) and widows in their affliction......". It is clear from this context that "orphanos" means "fatherless".

Let us return then to Jn. 14:18 where we read that Christ will not leave His disciples fatherless because He will come to them. That makes Christ their Father. That is to say, only the coming of the Father will make them not fatherless. But as we have seen in the paragraphs above, Christ is the Parakletos. So here Christ fulfills the offices of Father and Parakletos. And because the Parakletos is one of the offices of the Holy Spirit, that means that Christ also fulfills the office of Holy Spirit.

Again, if one thinks of Father and Holy Spirit as two different Persons of a supposed triune God, this makes no sense. But if one sees these as offices of One God, all is clear.

What do you think?

In Christ,

Joyce

[Paul Navarro]

As a former roman catholic I question anything that they consider as truth. And at the same time I am constantly examining myself to see if there is any error in my understanding of the word of God. It is not difficult for me to understand your doubts about certain traditional teachings. I agree with you in that scripture does not teach a "triune" God. On the other hand I believe that your arguments with respect to the father and the son are erroneous. From your arguments I'm getting the sense that God is schizophrenic, if He talks to Himself. The apostles didn't seem to have a problem with it. "His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb." (John 16:29) If it had been me, thinking as you say that He was praying to Himself or to one of His “offices”, I would have said, "This guy is nuts!"
Secondly, I recall my catholic teaching that said that God was alone and so He wanted to share Himself with others and therefore He created angels and men. What a crock. Before there was any creation, He was not alone. "...Now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5) He was completely fulfilled. He didn’t need anyone but apparently decided to create in His image. As Elohim, both were working in the creation. The spiritual power used to create was pneuma hagion. Afterwards, Jehovah with all his Holy Names, was working alongside His creation. But, there is no indication that God, who is spirit, (not a spirit) whom no man can see, has ever vacated His throne in heaven. He is so holy that He cannot be among creatures without wiping them out, so this cannot be Jehovah, because Jehovah can walk among His creatures and fellowship with them. But, Jehovah is God. I see no problem with this duality of God, in fact when I look in the mirror I see my father's image and my mother's image and yet I'm ONE. All people, male and female reflect that same duality. Even when God made Adam He used the same principle, "...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) One part earth plus one part pneuma equals ONE human soul.
I will give you a byte of what I believe scripture is saying with respect to the holy spirit. The holy spirit is not God Himself, whether it is spelled with a capital or not. It is simply life, pneuma, that is holy, that comes directly from God, manifests itself in powerful ways, including the new life that believers have in Christ, it is so a part of God that it can be confused as God, but it is not God Himself. It was also known as the Shekinah Glory, God’s presence, but not God himself. It is the power that God has always used to work out His programs in all the ages and dispensations. But it is not God Himself.
The true monotheists don’t mince words about there being only one God. They are willing to back up their words with the sword. I don’t believe that you are a monotheist. I believe that you are a sincere Christian that is not afraid of reprisals.

Peace in Christ, L. Paul N.

[Joyce]

Dear Paul,

This message in my view is the most important of your posts because it has to do with Who God is.

You wrote, "From your arguments I'm getting the sense that God is schizophrenic, if He talks to Himself". (I really wish you had not used the word "schizophrenic"-and later "nuts"- of God because if God does talk to Himself you have demeaned Him greatly.)

As we go to the OT you will see that indeed God has talked with Himself. Let us consider Gen. 1:26 where Elohim says "Let us make Man in our own image".

Gen. 3:22 reads, "And Jehovah Elohim said, 'Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil: now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever-'".

In Gen. 11:6-7 we read, "And Jehovah said, 'Behold the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do. Go to, let Us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech'".

We read in Is. 6:8, "Also I heard the voice of Jehovah saying, 'Whom shall I send and whom will go for Us'". Here again, this is Jehovah speaking, and He must be speaking to Himself in His many offices.

Perhaps an example from life will help to clarify this seeming difficulty.

At one time in my life I served as President of the Board for a community orchestra. I was also the business manager, and for a short while I replaced the treasurer who had moved out of the area. At times I, as business manager, had to ask myself, as President of the Board, for money to purchase music. And then I had to ask myself as treasurer to write a check. I held three offices, but I was still only one person. Naturally, I did not really talk to myself, but the Holy Spirit through Moses was making it clear in Gen. 1:26 that several offices were involved in creation.

I hope you're not going to suggest that this is a "royal we". There is no precedence for that, i.e. there is nowhere in Scripture where anyone has ever used a so-called "royal we". I believe in interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

I don't understand what your point is about God not being alone, so I will leave that.

But then you wrote, "But, there is no indication that God, who is spirit, (not a spirit) whom no man can see, has ever vacated His throne in heaven". I agree, God as spirit has never vacted His throne in heaven, but Christ as the manifestation of God did indeed come from heaven. But I don't see how this has anything to do with whether God is three Persons, rather than having many titles.

The only argument against my suggestion that God is one with many offices is that He does not talk to Himself. I believe there is enough Scriptural evidence that He does and has. So I will leave it that for now.

In Christ,

Joyce

[Paul Navarro]

Firstly, I reiterate that I am not a "trinitarian" nor am I a "monotheist" as you obviously profess to be, although I believe that there is only one God. I'll explain: my non trinitarian stance is not based on your suggestion, which I can only call the "hat theory". My non trinitarian stance is based on the fact that holy spirit, pneuma hagion, is not God Himself, rather it is the power that God uses to communicate with or to perform an operation on His people, whether it be to/on Israel or to/on the body of Christ. But, it is not God. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I'm just trying, to the best of my abillty, to differentiate between our stances. So, by simple process of elimination, if I hold to the holy spirit not being God, then that leaves two persons or beings, in the Godhead. Simple math, right? Now, specifically, because of this verse, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) , I cannot be a "monotheist" as you. For, this verse specifically states that there are and were, two beings. I cannot in my wildest dreams use your "hat theory" and rewrite it to mean: "In the beginning was the Word (which was really just a "hat"), and the Word (only in the officiating sense) was with God, and the Word (hat), was God (only in the sense that God was wearing it)." (Joyce 1:1) But, John 1:1unequivocally makes a distinction between two beings and that these two beings are One as also Christ Himself says,"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) No "hat" tricks needed here.
Marriage is the example that God has used to give us the understanding of this concept. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2: 24) Paul calls it a "great mystery". In the Godhead there are two beings, the Word, which we now know came down and became flesh, and God, who has never left the throne, and who became the Father when He begat the Word in Mary's womb. So, simply put, I believe that the Godhead consists, not of three beings, nor of one being, but two beings; the Word and God, now also known as the Son and the Father. The cult of roman catholicism paganized the meaning of the word holy spirit by making it to mean a phantom , a ghost, and believers have bought into it.
With respect to being alone: God has never been alone, which is "monotheism", for, if you extrapolate back into eternity past, before any creation, according to your "hat theory", God was the only one around, all alone, with just His "hat/s". Simple deduction. But, according to John 1:1, He was not alone for the Word was with Him. Again, I'm trying to differentiate between our stances and I'm not seeking approval or agreement. I also realize that if others read this that more than likely I'll be considered "nuts". So be it. "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10)
Peace in Christ
Paul Navarro

[Joyce]

Dear Paul,

I believe that the most informative paragraph in your message was this: "Now, specifically, because of this verse, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) , I cannot be a "monotheist" as you. For, this verse specifically states that there are and were, two beings. I cannot in my wildest dreams use your "hat theory" and rewrite it to mean: "In the beginning was the Word (which was really just a "hat"), and the Word (only in the officiating sense) was with God, and the Word (hat), was God (only in the sense that God was wearing it)." (Joyce 1:1) But, John 1:1unequivocally makes a distinction between two beings and that these two beings are One as also Christ Himself says,"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) No "hat" tricks needed here". (I don't appreciate the "hat trick" phrase, but I will let that pass this time.)

You are saying that the Word, Who is obviously Christ is one Person and God is another Person. Let's examine that thought.

Who is God, i.e. what is His Name? We read in Isaiah 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is My Name…". So when John wrote "and the Word was with God" he was saying that the Word was with Jehovah, as that is God's Name. As my paper http://www.rightwordtruth.com/JCJehovah.htm will prove from Scripture, Christ is God as spirit and the manifestation of God, i.e. the Word. Let me quote just one small portion of that paper.

We read in Matthew 3:3, "For this is he (John the Baptist) that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His path straight". This is a quote from Isaiah 40:3 where we read, "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of Jehovah". (The KJV has "the Lord" but the Hebrew is "Jehovah".) The one for Whom John the Baptist was preparing the way was Christ. John the Baptist was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah who wrote that he would prepare the way for Jehovah. By comparing the prophecy (Is. 40:3) with the fulfillment of prophecy (Matt. 3:3) we see one reason for believing that Christ is Jehovah in bodily form.

In other words, God, i.e. Jehovah, and the Word are the same Person. Jesus Christ is Jehovah and the manifestation of Jehovah.

How did you come to the conclusion that "marriage is the example that God has used to give us the understanding of this (two Person Godhead) concept"? Where is the Scriptural connection between marriage and an explanation of the Godhead?

I do understand your position better from this message, thank you. I will, Lord willing, post my message on the Holy Spirit as deity tomorrow.

As for convincing anyone of anything, I learned a long time ago that only God gives truth. That is to say, we can share what we believe to be Scriptural truth, but only God can "convince" us of truth.

In Christ,

Joyce

[Paul Navarro]

I'm glad that we have established the "why" of my not espousing a so-called Trinity, i.e. three persons in the Godhead. Now, with respect to the "dual concept: "How does marriage exemplify this concept?" We can ask ourselves, "Why male and female?" Why not, male only? Why not male and female and neuter? Why dual? Going back to inception, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he him." (Genesis 1:27) Notice, in the latter part of the verse that there are two entities, "male' and "female", and then he says, "created he him", one entity. The image that man (male and female) bears is God's duality. The process that God used to create man is also a dual process. "...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) One complete component, i.e. body, plus another complete component, i.e. breath of life, equals a completed whole, i.e. a living soul. Man is not a triune being, i.e. body, spirit (breath of life), and soul. He is a soul , consisting of a body and a spirit. Man (and woman) carrys God's dual image. As in the Godhead,the Word and God, the two are recognized as one, "...and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24) "...and they two shall be one flesh." (Ephesians 5:31) Paul takes this meaning to be a "great mystery". What is mysterious about it? I take it that it is hard for a natuaral man to view marriage as two individuals actually being one entity, the same as trying to view God as one entity and yet two persons. God apparently views the church and Christ as one body, and yet we know we are two distinct organisms.
So, I see duality in man's creation, in marriage, and in our (the church) relationship to Christ. At the same time there is oneness, 2 components but one soul, 2 genders but one flesh, 2 organisms but one body. God has stamped His duality on His highest creation,man, and on His highest earthly relationship, marriage, and on His highest heavenly relationship, the church and Christ. Even a favorite verse of y'alls is stamped with duality, i.e. Genesis 3:22 says "Yahweh Elohim", but we know that He is One, by His spirit that He has given us. I do not see your concept of "One and only One" stamped anywhere, if it were then it would be ipso facto,and would require no explanation as complicated as the (edited). You have your "hand on the switch", so to speak , but that is the only way that I can descibe your view. Sorry.
Peace in Christ
Paul Navarro

[Joyce]

Dear Paul,

Forgive me, but there is a problem with your logic. That is to say, yes, there are two in a marriage and all the other things you mentioned, but you have not shown a connection between any of those things and the Godhead. Let me use an example from life to try to make my point.

Let's say on Mon, Wed. and Fri. I have tea for breakfast instead of my usual coffee and on Mon.Wed. and Fri. it rains. Can we conclude that my having tea made it rain? Of course not? Why not? Because there is no connection between my tea and rain. So too is there no connection between any of the things you wrote about and the Godhead.

I will comment on your suggestion that the phrase Jahweh (a different spelling for Jehovah, no one is quite sure what it should be) Elohim. As I mentioned in my last message, the fact that John the Baptist when preparing the way for Christ fulfilled the Isaiah prophecy that one would prepare the way for Jehovah, is one of the many pieces of evidence that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And we know that Christ is Elohim. How do we know that? We know that from the fact that Gen. 1:1 tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth and John 1:10 tells us that Christ created the world. "He (Christ, see verse 9) was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not".

In other words, Jahweh Elohim are not two, they are one. Jesus Christ is Jahweh and Jesus Christ is Elohim, one, not two. So once again, your effort to disprove the oneness of God has failed.

But I do thank you for your comments and I think we should agree to disagree.

In Christ,

Joyce